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'10 KNOCK, REG' vs 'OKLAHOMA' vs 'LUCK'
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'10 KNOCK, REG' vs 'OKLAHOMA' vs 'LUCK'
Posted by
(VIP) 30 Mar 2004 12:13pm
Can anyone intelligently and logically explain why players THINK that Oklahoma takes more skill and has less luck than Regular gin?
My reasoning tells me that the addition of a knock card is a variable that can't be controlled and therefore is nothing more than an added luck factor.
With a consistent knock card of 10, both players start each and every hand equal.
Say your playing a game to 200 points and you have 180 to your opponents 140.
IF, IF, IF, the knock card is a paint you are looking to knock A.S.A.P. and that’s to your advantage.
IF, IF, IF, the knock card is an Ace, your opponent has the advantage because your forced to go for Gin.
I understand that Oklahoma is more popular because it was introduced as a way of getting more players into tournaments.
WHY? - WHY? - WHY?
Because with the added element of the 'KNOCK CARD LUCK FACTOR' the same BEST players won't win the majority of times as they consistently do when playing '10 KNOCK'.
I seriously would appreciate ANY intelligent and logical differences of opinions on this matter - TY
Your Are Funny!!!
Posted by
Ed_Blue
(VIP) 31 Mar 2004 12:27am
My dearest 'Bo-Jangles'. You asked for a logical support of Oklahoma over Regular Gin so here it is.
You answered the question in your message. The incentive for players that can't match the speed of the 'KNOCK-FACTOR' in Regular Gin now have a way to compete with the Regular Gin Players without the fear of the dreaded 'knock',
As you know, I play both gmes but surely enjoy Regular Gin more but OKlahoma is a fact of life and it is here (in GC) to stay. What's most interesting is the growing popularity of the 11PM '200Pts_OKIE_25Tix_Loser Deals' tourney. The Higher Rollers are now joining this tourney since it paid in excess of $100 to the winner for 2 nights within the past 3 days. An investment of $25 to win $100 isn't too shabby and it's becoming very very popular.
My proposition is, 'try it, you may like it' and compete with the others who've become regulars at 11PM and also the newly playing High-Rollers.
On the other hand, it may be feasible to run other High or Higher roller tourneys if the interest is there.
My asumption is that 5 players or more in a tourney would signify and ample incentive to play based on the payout.
Let's hear from as many as possible on thjis point.
In my opinion...... 
Posted by
MAB
31 Mar 2004 12:42am
Bo...I think one Okie Gin is a hit all over is because each hand is different. Okie appeals to the 'Gin Only' crowd because there are four aces in the deck so sometimes the hand is 'Gin Only' cause an ace is the up card. 
Okie also appeals to those who like Regular Gin cause at least half the time the hands are Regular Gin. LOL I'm pretty sure if you would play Okie a few times you would be a die hard Okie yourself.
Depends on the players!
Posted by
calc_guy
31 Mar 2004 3:48am
Oklahoma does require some skills that regular gin doesn't require. There are tricks to playing for gin right off the bat, and tricks to playing for a low knock. So if one of the players isn't savvy to these -- the netter player get a big advantage. MORE SKILL!
But if both players know these little tricks (or if neither knows), then Oklahoma adds more luck UNLESS a higher point is set for game. Eg. I think a 140 point OK depends on skill about as much as a 100 point 10 knock game.
Myself, I like a 150 to 300 point regular gin game.
calc_guy
'NO LOGIC - SO FAR'
Posted by
(VIP) 31 Mar 2004 12:36pm
With all due respect to the 3 replies above, I have not heard any logic as to there being more or less LUCK in Regular (10 knock) vs. Oklahoma. The question has nothing to do with tournaments or their popularity. The question has nothing to do with personal preferences. The question has nothing to do with my ability to play either one. It just so happens that I have played both games, Head to Head, One On One, Very Hi $ games in the past. Most of the Oklahoma Hi $ games I have played have been at Private Golf Country Clubs in Florida or California. I played these Oklahoma games because it was the only way to play with these particular 'Marks'. 'When in Rome'. I am well aware of the finest strategies of both. THE BEST PLAYER ALWAYS WINS AT EITHER - IT JUST TAKES LONGER IN OKLAHOMA. WHY?
I have found that the Best players I have ever played always played the same way.
'VERY HI$ HOLLYWOOD'
Of course this is played 10 KNOCK, 3 games across, $ on boxes, $ on points, $$ on Schneider’s and $ on game winners.
This is not possible here at GC and I'm not even trying to propose it.
I am also NOT trying to change anyone’s opinion or preference.
I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO GET THE 'REASONING AND LOGIC' BEHIND THE THOUGHT PROCESS THAT 'OKLAHOMA IS MORE SKILLFULL AND LESS LUCK' THAN 10 KNOCK. WHEN IN FACT IT IS JUST THE OPOSITE.
PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW AN UNCONTROLABLE VARIBLE DOES NOT INJECT MORE AND NOT LESS LUCK!
TO ME IT WOULD BE LIKE SAYING THAT 'THROWING DICE TAKES MORE SKILL THAN BOWLING'.
JUST BECAUSE BOTH GAMES REQUIRE THROWING OBJECTS.
PLEASE, LET ME HEAR SOME LOGIC & STITISTICAL FACTS? - TY
Reasoning / Logic??
Posted by
PEGASUS
31 Mar 2004 2:06pm
I wouldn't touch that one with a ten foot pole since I am obviously not as well versed on playing strategically as most of you. I just play on instincts and enjoy the game and it works at times I guess.
If truth were told I too enjoy the reg gin more, but will play whatever comes my way. Strange thing is...I can't seem to win the 100 and 125 games anymore. I seem to need that 150 to 200 spread. But I play them all and take my knocks.
Love those High Roller tourneys!!!
GL to all... Peg
10knock vs. okie
Posted by
(VIP) 31 Mar 2004 5:08pm
oh boy. simple explanation why 10 knock takes less skill than okie. More no brainers in 10 knock. No edge to better player. Okie takes more skill because the hands grnerally last longer and the closer it gets to the end of the deck the better player has the edge.
Example of a statistical fact
Posted by
calc_guy
1 Apr 2004 3:34am
'THE BEST PLAYER ALWAYS WINS AT EITHER'
Please. Do yourself a favor and reread my post.
'The question has nothing to do with personal preferences.'
Correct.
'The question has nothing to do with my ability to play either one.'
Incorrect.
'I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO GET THE 'REASONING AND LOGIC' BEHIND THE THOUGHT PROCESS THAT 'OKLAHOMA IS MORE SKILLFULL AND LESS LUCK' THAN 10 KNOCK.'
I didn't say that.
'PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW AN UNCONTROLABLE VARIBLE DOES NOT INJECT MORE AND NOT LESS LUCK!'
That's what I said (and very logically, I might add). You are talking about variance. Variance can be quantified, and is very well understood by the math heads. The way to even the playing field for greater variance is to increase the time required to get to game, just as I suggested.
16candles has a point too. But it's not as big a factor as you would think because hands played for gin are generally 100% offence, the first five or six picks. So defensive skill is still important, but kicks in later in the hand.
calc_guy
OKIE VS REG
Posted by
theboatman
(VIP) 1 Apr 2004 11:02am
If you take two people of equal playing ability and play okie luck will win most of the time. If the knock card is low in oki people tend to pick up a lot of cards that can be played either way. So in early stages of hand there is a lot of guessing is guessing a skill.
I have been dealt 9 cards that play and lost the hand because the up card was an ace and isn't that luck of the draw.
I have played all 3 games reg, oki, and gin only and still win over 60% of games.
But from my playing experience reg is the game that takes the most skill.
But, regardless of your preference knowing the cards that have been played is the key to winning in any gin game.
So work on those memory skills and improve you gin game.
Happy gining
Or in my case happy knocking.
WHY?
Posted by
Ed_Blue
(VIP) 1 Apr 2004 5:59pm
Why is it so important to determine which game requires more skill?
This posting has received both quantitative and qualitative responses and I believe they are both correct.
The choice is yours. Play the game that you feel most comfortable playing.
I prefer Regular Gin but I never shy away from an OKIE match. They are different games but both are called 'GIN'.
ORIGIN OF OKLAHOMA STYLE GIN?
Posted by
(VIP) 1 Apr 2004 6:28pm
Does anyone here know the HOW, WHY, WHEN, WHERE of Oklahoma style gin. I was brought up thinking the correct name of gin was Knock Rummy. I am truly curious about how and why this relatively new type of gin began.
Some stuff about Oklahoma Gin
Posted by
webmaster
1 Apr 2004 7:41pm
Oklahoma Gin was the favorite variation played by one of the greatest Gin players of all times -- John Crawford (1915 - 1976).
In his book 'How to Be a Consistent Winner in the Most Popular Card Games', John Crawford gave many valuable pointers for winning at Oklahoma Gin. Among them were the following:
1) Always remember the knock card number.
2) The first object is to get on score (so there is no chance of being schneidered).
3) With a high knock card (10, 9, or 8), play for two melds and a quick knock.
4) With a low knock card (5, 4, 3 or 2), aim for three melds.
5) With a low knock card, discard a lot more freely.
6) On a must-gin hand, remember kings and aces are the least valuable cards.
7) With a low knock card it often pays to block your opponent by breaking up your hand
'WHO SHOT JOHN' ?
Posted by
(VIP) 1 Apr 2004 7:57pm
If John played according to his advice #7 I truly wish he was still around and playing me for many, many tickets right here in GC (River City) !!!
John's Rule # 7
Posted by
wilpat
(VIP) 2 Apr 2004 8:18am
Please note that John used the word 'often' not 'always'. Often means more than never and less than frequently.
I think his rule applies.
bo noes this
Posted by
Rampage11
(VIP) 2 Apr 2004 4:02pm
hey bo let me ask u a few questions. playing reg gin if the up card is a ace can u nk with 10? the answer is yes. if ur playing okl and the up card is a ace can u nk with 10? the answer is no. y cuz u need gin to nk ..... do u play gin only ? is there more skill in gin only than nking? whats harder gin out or nking with 10?if u had 99 and game was to 100 whould u wanna nk without gin for the win? and whats luck? do u no? can u only b lucky in 1 form of gin? i dunno keep ur chin up practice makes perfect. i wouldnt rely on luck and reg gin is easier than okl ginning out to me is hardest but to each is own . ... ramp
RAMPAGE11 - LETS PLAY THAT SERIES
Posted by
(VIP) 2 Apr 2004 7:30pm
I have been trying to catch you in the room because you previously stated you would play a series with me. LETS DO IT! REQUEST THROUGH 'CONTACT US' FOR MAB TO GET WITH ME. SHE CAN. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO OUR MATCH & W/L OR DRAW - THANKS FOR THE ACTION & GL
The right questions
Posted by
calc_guy
3 Apr 2004 6:25am
Don't ask yourself 'if u had 99 and game was to 100 whould u wanna nk without gin for the win?' Ask yourself 'if you were shy on skill, and both players had 75 points with game at 100, would you want a must gin hand or a knock hand?' Answer: you would want a must gin hand. Why? Because you now know there will be exactly one hand to the finish line, and the fewer the hands, the easier it is for luck to triumph.
Playing with skill is like flipping a biased coin. If a coin is 60/40 for heads, then flipping it once gives a 40% chance for tails to come out on top. Flipping it twice gives only a 16% for tails to come out on top. Three times, 35.2%, four times, only a 6.4% chance. Odd numbers of flips seem to favor tails, only because draws are eliminated. But in general, the odds of the weaker side coming out on top go down, down, down, the more times you flip a coin ... play a hand ... whatever.
So now ask yourself, 'if instead of 75 points each, the players had 50 points each, THEN what does the weaker player want?' (Hint: What does the bettor on tails want?) What if both players had 25? And WHAT if the game were starting out fresh at naught to naught???
The answer should be obvious.
QED
calc_guy
10 and under is for not
Posted by
(VIP) 13 Apr 2004 8:51pm
if u dont like the different knock cards than play any low knockcard like 3 or 4 all the time . that would end the luck factor u talk about and make it a better game.
THATS NOT THE POINT (excuse the pun)
Posted by
(VIP) 14 Apr 2004 1:07pm
1.- There is a good reason 10 is the knocking point. There are more 10 count cards in the deck than any other.
2.- The GC system couldn't set up games with a consistant knock value card.
3.- Everyone seems to forget the original name for Gin was Knock Rummy.
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