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Is Play Getting Slower???
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Is Play Getting Slower???
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 6 Jun 2004 5:55pm     


I've never been accused of slow play and my average turn-around is less than 2 seconds; not including the times I've spent chatting. I'm not saying this to create any misgivings and those of you that have played me know I will not complain about slow play unless it appears intentionally abusive.

I can tolerate 5 seconds, 10 or 15 seconds and I also yeild to the players not connected with DSL. When play is 30 seconds and slower there is a problem.

Just recently I notied high rated players flying through some hands and dragging badly in others. Again, I can fully understand if the pace was contant throughout, fast or slow, but when some moves take 3 seconds and other take 45 seconds I am a bit at a loss and it does tend to throw my game off.

Is that it, is it intentional? Wow, how bad do those players need a win.

Please don't interpret this as being 'thin-skinned' because I'm not. This is just an observation and I'd be curious to get other impressions.

Oh yeah, the 'brb' is okay with me but a delay of 45 seconds to a minute without a word is just plain rude. I have the habit of asking my opponent 'ru ok?' and they usually play at that time without reponding. One other thought, it seems that the cash-players get through the matches much faster than the non-cash players. Is this my imagination also?

How do the rest of you feel about intentional slow play?


Simple...
Posted by (VIP) 6 Jun 2004 8:49pm     


I will know within the first three cards if the game will take 2 minutes or 20 minutes. If it is the latter, I request an abort. If the scenerio is one where 'all of the sudden' it slows down due to bad cards etc etc, then I request a speed up and if that doesnt work, it's right to 'contact us' for me. If one of them does get by me though and they are consistently slow, i.e. average of 7 seconds or more per move, then I just say at the end when they request another game 'ty, but you just play way too slow for me' and I move on. I think I covered most scenerios about speed of play so hope that helps. Oh, in regards to the speed of cash vs non-cash players, that should probably be a random coincidence. I cant see how one would have more of a factor over another. If anything it should be REVERSED as there is more at stake in a $$ game where non cash games are virtually meaningless, as Menk well pointed out in his previous posts.

Andrew's Mom ......
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 6 Jun 2004 10:14pm     


Thanks for the reply mom. Conceptually I agree with all of your points and especially the CONTACT US. The problem is, we give players 1/2/3/5 minutes a move before we even start each match. At that rate I'm fast asleep by the second card. I refrain from using the abort key because I used it as a joke many months agao and I seriously jeopardized a great friendship. The change of pace during a match is also a tough one. If your opponent falls behind and then slows down that's a real sign of intentional harassment and your only option is not to play that player again.

As far as cash v non-cash players its my perception that non-cash players seem to perceive themselves as something real special and need to 'act the part all the time'. I love the game of gin and will play anyone at any rates and that's why my rating fluctuates well over 100 points a night. Just scan the messages and look whose posting the most and there's your answer.

Menkman is a great player and a great friend. I disagree with his comment about non-cash play being 'meaningless'. It is to us but to them it seems to be more important than to us. In other words, we seem to be the players and they seem to be the actors and 'wanna-be's'.

Please don't gang up on me, although I'll never run from a challenge, since I do play non-cash matches when no cash matches are available. I also play non-cash matches with newer players to give them a chance to get up to speed and give them a ranking that even the snobs will recognize and play with.

You see, that is my point. What is important to who? Winning is a challenge for both types of play but to limit your play to only players over a certain ranking is myopic view of the game and the site. The phrase that comes to mind is 'being a legend in their own minds.' That seems to sum it up.

Again, all non-cash players are not like this but the recent postings prompted me to take a closer look at the w/l percentages of lower rated players and there were a good number of them up into the 60% win range. Menkman, you are correct.


Try chess
Posted by calc_guy 6 Jun 2004 9:42pm     


... or even checkers. I truly believe there is as much skill in gin rummy as there is in checkers, where the average thinking time is over 10 seconds per move, and often goes over two minutes.

To me, 45 seconds is fine. Not as an average, but once or twice a hand -- no problem. It bothers me when people play TOO FAST. I don't know what they're playing, but it isn't the gin rummy I know and love.

calc_guy

Wow
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 7 Jun 2004 7:08pm     


Calc_guy, it's hard to believe your posting. Your turn-around wasn't anything near 10 seconds....yep, it was much less. 45 seconds a move is inexcuseable and it would even put you to sleep. As far as fast play is concerned it's obvious that some of us focus a bit quicker than others. All of my job experience demanded quik response/decisions and its somewhat the same in gin. I never asked an opponent to play faster unless it became apparent to me that the slow-down was intentional. In all the games we played, 6 or 8, there was never an issue with speed on either side or maybe there was. Was I playing too fast for you? It didn't appear so. I beleive you are ahead by one game in our meetings.

I also believe the skill required in Chess is much greater than in Gin. The strategic options in chess are multiples of what they are in gin. Are these games comapable? Don't think so. In chess everyone plays by the same rules and move-time is a factor.

Nice to hear from you again Calc.

I agree chess is tougher
Posted by calc_guy 7 Jun 2004 10:08pm     


Like I said, I think checkers is roughly comparable to gin in the amount of brain power needed. They are different, but comarable.

There's much more luck in gin rummy, but luck and skill are not mutually exclusive. More luck doesn't mean less skill!

I think serious games of chess are set to average 2 or 3 minutes per move, with some moves taking over 15 minutes. So chess takes more brain power than gin and checkers combined.

About 1 opponent in 3 complains about my slow speed. I don't think these people believe in defense. They remember what you picked up, yes. But they don't believe in paying much attention to keeping NEW melds from the other guy -- which to me is 90% of the game. It doesn't take any brain power to see your own combinations.

For instance, if you give your opponent a jack, and he makes three jacks out of it, he's reduced his total by about 30 points in one play. That's MORE than the average points in one hand. But of course -- you have to throw something!

I don't mind fast players (as long as they don't mind playing me!), I just feel they are missing out on a lot of what makes the game so fascinating to me.

calc_guy

Calc_
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 7 Jun 2004 11:38pm     


Its a miracle......I agree fully with your reply


PS
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 7 Jun 2004 11:40pm     


If anyone complains about your speed of play they must be lacking something much mopre important. My point was that speed does not determine a players' skill. They can have both and from what I observed, you have both. Now its about time you come and play with the rest of us.....come-on guy, you've created a demand for your hide.....lol

Again and Again....
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 10 Jun 2004 1:41am     


The slow play seems to be growing as more players join the site. Earlier today I played a 1650 rated player that averaged over 25 seconds a move. If that was her average you can imagine how many moves were over 30 seconds; too many. I asked her to speed up her play and even said 'Please....' but she kept her pace. She'd go through short spurts of fast play and then went right back to the slow play.

I almost forgot, this was a non-cash match and it seems to support my feeling that non-cash players take much longer to move than cash players.

What do you think?


To The World...
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 10 Jun 2004 1:45am     


I had the opportunity to play the Calc_Guy earlier. We played 3 matches and he beat me in all of them. I understand his rationale for deliberate moves because his play was almost brilliant. He does use Chess-Like strategy to plan his hands.

My hat is off to the Calc_Guy for his quality of play. Okay, the matches were not rated but they were totally enjoyable. How can we get this man to join the cash-play crowd?

I've got it, when he gets over 2300 he'll have acomplished his goal and then join the rest of us.

Come on Calc, the number of players waiting for you is staggering. If that was your startegy all along you succeeded. You can even make a decent living doing this gin thing.



Thanks Ed, but ...
Posted by calc_guy 10 Jun 2004 2:44am     


... I can hear syd, and goddy (among othes) laughing their buns off right now. I'm afraid I'm not as good as you think. I screwed up that one hand where you laid off the 5-6 of clubs and undercut me.

I was up around 2260 the other day, then goddy beat me 4 games out of 5. It may be a loooong time before I get up to 2300, if ever.

Do you really think it's possible to make a living playing gin on GC? It doesn't seem like the stakes are high enough.

calc_guy

Just Kidding Calc_
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 10 Jun 2004 4:04pm     


I guess the private circuits around the country-club crowd could offer a decent wage for a good player but not in GC. There is one player that believes otherwise but that's another story.

It was fun last night but I see you quest continues. Whatever, you know I wish you the best luck and great cards.

We're waitinbg for you!!!!!


This is getting serious.....
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 12 Jun 2004 1:11am     


I don't know if these postings are causing players to intentionally slow down or making more of us aware of the problems. Just an hour or so ago, that's after midnight, an experienced player joined my table for a 10 tix match (150_Reg_LD). I played this man before, many months ago. As soon as I accumulated a lead, his play slowed to 30 seconds a move. When he thought he was ahead, in a game, he moved in less than 5 seconds. I mentioned the slow-down to him and he sped up a bit for just a short while.

When he won a game he was like lightning. Whe he lost he began his slow-down again.

Okay, I beat him anyway. He left the table without saying a word but I had a few choice words to say to him.

The night before, a young lady joined me and she was so slow I actually threw the game to finish it.

It seems that I'm not the only one noticing this type of intentional harassment. It doesn't really work and all you're doing is building a very strong case against yourselves for either the rest of us or GC. What I mean is wejust won't play you and GC may decide to do something about this.

I must say that the most recent probabilty factor applied after the clock runs out is a great tool; I assume it works. I set the table clock to 2 minutes earlier when the stated player took up to 1 minute to move.

Wow, where has common courtesy gone? If you don't want to play, why join the table? Winning by tactics other than skill, and luck, will eventually catch up to you.


Why me?????
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 12 Jun 2004 1:18am     


I guess its because I'm a bit outspoken and visible to most players thropugh either play or by running tourneys. Ah ha, I am the drop-off point for most complaints and that's fine with me.

What I'd like to do is to expand on these issues and if its happening to you, say so.

A loyal player whose been around for a while mentioned to me earlier that on two ocassions one late night his opponents, two separate players, refused to hit the CONTINUE after they lost their matches.

The complainant stated that one of the players made him hold on for 10 minutes until the time ran out and that's intolerable. More miserable is te fact that this sort of thing happened to him twice in one night.

from webmaster:
GC has thoroughly investigated this particular complaint. It turned out to be a complete misinformation from a player who is accustomed to using the 'teary' stories to beg for $Tickets from various potential 'donors'.
When any player uses 'Contact Us', any legitimate complaints get promptly resolved.



play getting slower
Posted by (VIP) 13 Jun 2004 5:44am     


most of us know who the slow players are. i like to play fast. there is no way that it should take more than 10 seconds to play. most of the time you know what card you need and what card you are going to throw out. i have tried to play as slow as the person i am playing but it messing up my game. also, what i hate is if you are winning the player deliberately disconnects and returns with 5 seconds left before you could abort/wait/win. gc should put a little memo box next to each players name that u could write comments, only you can see about each person. then you can decide to play them when they join your table.

WOW
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 13 Jun 2004 10:23am     


This must have touched some tender nerves....

I guess I continue to be a victim of players asking for help. To let the world in, the problem was created when I asked CONTACT US to interceded on behalf of this player. My experience with CONTACT US has always been remarkably fast and accurate so, I must admit, when the player told me this story I was a bit suspicous but being the good samaritan I followed up.

I don't think its a bad thing to be nice to people and that's what I did. I hope it pays off in the long run.

Us TD's work for all the players and it's our way of saying thanks to the game, GC and the other players that make the site what it is.

It may not be a bad idea for some of the players to use CONTACT US to let them know you also appreciate the work that we, the TDs, are doing.

Now look at what I've done.....

To the FORCE
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 13 Jun 2004 10:32am     


I am also a fast player and I don't, usually, comment about an opponent's slow play unless I detect something intentionally wrong and then I speak out.

A funny thing happened a week or so ago.

I was in a 150_REG_10T_LD match. I was ahead 145:15 and my opponent was really dragging. But, he/she was dragging throughout the match so I didn't suspect any fould-play. I had an appointment that was coming frightingly close so I said, 'Can you please speed up your play...I must leave shortly.' My opponent didn't reply but he/she immediately hit the abort button. With the score as it was I had to laugh. The joke was good enough that I accepted the abort.

Now that is funny. I agve my opponent a way out and he/she took it.....my fault

The issue of returning just before time runs out is a sad one. I agree with you 150%, if the money is that important so be it. Our choice is always not to play that worthy (?) opponent again.

PS I've been a GC player for about a year and I never knew there was a BAN button. I never used it although there were a few occasions it would have been appropriate.


Suggestions
Posted by (VIP) 13 Jun 2004 2:21pm     


I think there should be a time limit for each hand, and maybe even for the game. I am sure there are some flaws, but I think it would be a good idea, unless I overlooked many flaws.

I agree with force about the 'memo box'. For example, when you click for player information, there should be your comment on that player than only you can read that you created earlier, and forgot that person was a staller. It seems like a great idea.

I also agree with Ed about non-cash and cash player speed. I played about 1000 games on a different alias, and games didn't go by too fast. When I first got this alias, the ticket games went by extremely fast. I have played about 100 cash games and 20 non-cash, and I don't know why I continue to play non-cash, beause each time it seems to be slower. I don't know if it is just me, coincidence, or truth.

If any comments sterotyped non-cash players, I am sorry, just trying to bring up my opinion.

Thanks Brom.....
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 14 Jun 2004 12:48am     


Thanks for your reply....I glad someone else confirms what I've noticed.

It seems as though the non-cash players take more time to analyze each move and projet possible outcomes 3 and 4 moves ahead. Although this 'CHESS' strategy seems logical, I know I can probably be out by the time that scenario of moves happens.

Another point, maybe its just me, is there are just so many options for each hand. The variables are your cards, your opponent's dis-cards and the deck. I can't understand why any move can take longer than 10 seconds to make. Longer times seem just harassment and can't be anything else.

How long does it take to make a decision?????

Okay, the one excuse for slow play is a non-DSL connection. But I know lots of players using a dial-up modem that fly through their moves.

This does puzzle me and, I'm sorry to say, it must bother others as much as me....

This Is Not A 'Mutual Admiration Society' !
Posted by (VIP) 13 Jun 2004 10:44pm     


I think we all have to remember that this wonderful site we enjoy starts with www.
That means World. Wide. Web.!
This is NOT a Mutual Admiration Society.
There are many players here - all with different motives, backgrounds, experiences & goals.
If your playing for fun (and no tickets), I think you should expect politeness, courtesy, possible friendship and a friendly chats amongst all other 'Fun' players.
If however, you are playing for tickets ($), I think you should act & play the same as if you were entering the largest Gin Tournament Site on earth. In other words, keep your guard up at all times & expect anything and everything can & will happen to get your tickets.
I know a lot of you disagree with this pessimistic attitude - but it is TRUE & REAL. 'DEAL WITH IT' or at least don't be so surprised & or offended.
REMEMBER - 'NO HUSTLER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD - EVER HUSTLED ANYONE WHO WAS BROKE OR DIDN'T PLAY FOR $ !!!
I firmly believe that there is no living breathing person who doesn’t have some degree of larceny. How much, depends on the individuals beliefs & needs. The most sanctimonious people on this site that THINK they have no larceny, should ask themselves - Why do they even play for $ and why do they feel better when they win than when they lose.
(The above is just my personal opinion and the voice of 44 years of playing experiences. I say playing, not gambling because I hate gambling (and gambling doesn't involve SKILL). I think it is stupid and an enormous waste of time & energy. Gambling on the roll of the dice or on a horse to win a race is dumb. Competing with YOUR skill and proper money management can be very enjoyable and profitable.)
As Always, TY & GL

In The Bank
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 14 Jun 2004 3:38pm     


This is a copy of my reply under another Message posting on this same subject:

You said a mouthul.....

While I agree that there is a very high degree of competitiveness in playing for tix I disagree that you can't compete, enjoy the game and enjoy the other players at the same time.

Let's face it, we all love to win but isn't it a bit more enjoyable if you play 'loose' and not uptight? I guess I'm one of those fools that enjoys a good match, for tix or not, and enjoys the great competition we have on GC.

'Mutual Admiration Society', why not. If my opponent deserves accolade I am the first to lay them on him or her. If they don't, I usually say nothing. But I am not especially soft spoken or low keyed.

A good example is the time and effort TDs put in to the site. Believe me, it's not the pay. We do it for the site and it's players. If that's a bad thing then quite a few of us are pretty bad people.



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