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Fact....or....Fiction Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 15 Oct 2004 1:28am GIN PLAYER versus GIN PLAYER? This is a mindblower and all of us have come across it but it has just recently become problematic. Yup, there are certain players you should beat all the time but always lose to them. It doesn’t make a bit of difference if your rating is 1,750 and theirs is mid 1,400s, you will lose all the time. Sound familiar? I bet it does. A few months ago a very highly rated player, make that two very highly rated players, passed a comment to me that my “play was too erratic for them to play with me.” I won, I smiled and I apologized for winning. I tried to figure out what they were talking about and it came down to the fact that I seem to take more chances than most in the game that I love. I’ve become more of a purist, lately, and as one of the very best in GC told me just a few weeks ago, “you have improved but here’s what you did wrong……” Now that was a great compliment from this great player and I appreciated it. Back to the ‘new breed’ of gin player: pickup every first card if you need it or not, pickup any card that vaguely resembles anything in your hand, discard the same card as just picked up but in a different suit, always pickup picture cards, always pickup any card under 5 and always win. This is the winning formula. Does it work? You bet it does. Just the other day, this one player beat me and two other very highly rated players. Okay, I included myself in the pot, believe it or not, but the result was the same. I even warned one of the other players that this player is “probably the worst player on GC but he/she will beat you and confuses the living ---- out of you.” That right fans, this player did just that and even won the tourney that was loaded with great players. To make matters worse, he/she did it again and again. I use misdirection and it works but I never jeopardize a good hand or ignore a correct play opportunity. This player never makes a sound move and he/she forces you to discard what you’d never discard under normal circumstances. But, the winner is, that player. Now, the point of this posting is for you to determine if this is fact or fiction. If it’s fiction it’s quite a story. If it’s fact, watch out because this type of play lends itself to a deterioration of the great high standards of the game. What do you think? HEHEHE IT BOTH Posted by sam85 (VIP) 15 Oct 2004 8:15am DEAR ED TY FOR U HAVE LEARN WELL.AND ALL CAN BLAME ME FOR TEACHING U REMBER SOME DO PLAY THAT AND MISDIRECTIONS.WORK WELLBUT U NEED TO KNOW WHEN TO CHANGE PLAY. AND PLAY TO HAVE FUN.IF OTHERS NEED TELL THEM CCOME SEE MASTER ILL TEACH THEM LOL SAM85 Sammy, Sammy, Sammy Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 16 Oct 2004 12:55am As usual, I appreciate your response and thank you for all the great things you've taught me. I do believe I have a better than average grasp of the game and I also understand the mechanics or the 'win/loss'. The point I was trying to make is that a good to excellent player matched against a very new or very bad player runs a very sincere risk of losing. The reason is the lack of a pattern of play that all better players will follow. Just yesterday I played in a tourney championship match with Big_Snowman, pardon me if the name is wrong. This was one of the very best matches I've had the pleasure of being in in a very long time. We were neck and neck right down the the very last hand and at no time during the match were we more than 20 points apart. That's what I believe a great gin game is all about. By the way, I lost to a better player. I now understand what the Calc_Guy was saying all along, 'there is only one right way to play gin.' There may be 30 different strategies to get there but the basics never change. UNTIL you come against that player who doesn't or won't play by the basic rules and that's when you're vulnerable. Another issue is those ---- one-sided matches. I've had my share on both sides and neither the win nor the loss is good unless the game is played correctly. Okay, its the 'card, cards, cards,' I agree but it does make for a bad match. These are the points I wanted to discuss in this FORUM posting. reply to Ed's erratic play comment Posted by Menkman74 (VIP) 16 Oct 2004 9:10am Hi Ed. Every so often I check the forum to see what's goin on in here and every so often I will reply to a player's comments. Yours I felt deemed a quick response from me. Now, I know we have played quite a few times in the past and I am not sure if I was actually the one who commented to you on your 'erratic' play as you stated above, but if I didnt comment on it to you, I was sure thinking it. And I say that with all due respect of course. But what you consider a strategy and taking more chances, I consider as a sub-par way of playing gin. Sure, yeah yeah yeah, that type of player will win but I can play against my friend who I JUST taught to play gin and told him the way to win at gin is to have 4,3,3 of a kind etc etc and he can beat me as well. Look, the point is, there is a difference between winning now, and winning over the long haul. You consider yourself a very good gin player and I will absolutely concur that we have had some very good games. But I cannot attribute your sub-par record to anything more than your exact strategy that you consistently talk about here in the forum. That is in no way a shot at you by any means but gin records are judged over time and I consider a few thousand games a good barometer of a players skill but MORE IMPORTANTLY how they play the game. Is it any coincidence that when a player with a record below .500 joins my table with that many games played, I know even before I hit the start button that they don't play the 'right way' (meaning the way to play to win long term). Do you think that the great gin players (ones that i would say win 60% of their games or more) play erraticly and consistently, again operative word is consistently, take high risk chances? There are absolutely strategic risks to help improve your chances of winning like taking a card that would allow you four chances of making a meld as an example. I could give many more specific strategic risk examples but this post isnt about that. I consider myself a learned and educated gin player and please trust me when I say that I know HOW to play against what I consider 'speckers' and 'erratic players', but I just don't ENJOY playing against them. So when I say that I'd rather not play someone b/c of erratic play, it's nothing personal, just preferable. Always a Pleasure, Never a Chore... Menk Hi Menk Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 16 Oct 2004 11:04pm Thanks for the reply and the 'heads-up'. You are not one of the players passing the comment to me but I do repect your opinion. If I remember correctly, barring in-grown gray hairs, our matches were rather enjoyable. I do remember one of them where you quick ginned and I attributed it to luck. Maybe I was wrong. Ironically, my posting was not about me but about another player that plays even worse than I do. I do pride myself in being able to take criticism and I graciously accept yours. There is one other factor, to skill that is, and that's luck. It's virtually impossible to be defensive against a 2nd or 3rd card gin. Even the best of you can't do that. I must admit I did enjoy playing you and other highly rated players. I'm forbidden to mention their names but most of them got over 2,000 ratings. I've chasnged my game significantly and only draw to a lay or a 4x chance of a lay. I agree that in the 'long-run' the better player will stand up taller but this anomoly I discussed is real and even you've been victim to it. I guess There's still time to learn. As usual, thanks for your input. Fact or Fiction or.. could it be..... FUN ? Posted by DottiPage (VIP) 17 Oct 2004 2:06am Ya know I'm having trouble trying to figure out if I'm offended or not. Is this just a website for the elite and superior Gin Rummy players? I seem to hear different people being rated by different players differently all the time. So to some degree how good someone is appears to be somewhat relative. And maybe it’s all about how serious of a player one is. I'm 45 years old and have played Gin Rummy much more than half my life, however.... it is NOT my life. I come here at night to unwind, relax and have a good time. And I'm really not sure if I use the same strategy every time or not. I hate to appear paranoid but I feel I qualify in some of your statements Ed. I've beat you and several other awesome players. I attribute it to my mojo just workin making the cards and me think alike. Breaking it down too much more than that is too much like work (which is what I want to avoid at this time of day) but if you'd rather just have folks here that have charts, formula's and grids they play by then I will certainly go elsewhere. But what I can say, it sure has been fun. Fun...spelled F U N! Thanks so much for your time ) dotto Boy can I relate to YOU Dotti Posted by PEGASUS (VIP) 17 Oct 2004 1:38pm There are many more like you and me that play here than the 'elite' as you call them. I respect the fact they can play strategy and still have fun, but as you say, I just PLAY for fun. Sometimes I'm good and more often not, but I always enjoy the game. Don't leave please. Don't be intimidated. As you said you win against some of the best as I do...so if it's just luck sobeit LOL Keep having FUN and Happy Ginning!! Hi Dotti....... Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 17 Oct 2004 7:01pm Thanks for your reply. I've never considered myself and 'elite' gin player and, those who know me, understand that I also play for the sole enjoyment of the game. If I really cared about rating and making a living playing gin I surely wouldn't play in tourneys and would select my opponents very carefully. I do play in tourneys and I'll play any person that invites me to play. I must agree that 'over the long run' I will have a lower rating because of the people I play and not the manner in which I play. It's incredibly interesting who responds to these FORUM postings. It can be weeks between postings, not the way it used to be, but sometimes that little spark can create quite a conversation of players at all levels. I don't remember our match but I do remember the name. I believe I enjoyed our match. Net, net, I am not one of those players in the rarfied air of the gin elite although I have beaten most of them from time to time. It's great to hear them reply when they lose but have always left the matches I've played with them with them saying 'GG'. I thought they meant it, maybe I'm wrong. Replying to the forum Posted by wilpat (VIP) 17 Oct 2004 7:30pm I generally agree with Dotti except that I am definately offended when other players attack me for the way I play. I have been accused of playing slow, which is simply not the case. Sure sometimes we all get interrupted by the telephone or the grandkids or something else, but that is the exception. Also I was recently chided because I did not call with very few points in my hand, but when that started I was WAY behind and needed big counts or just give up! As it happens I won that game with some cuts. I have been playing for a long time and sometimes I win and sometimes I lose -- so what!! If I could not afford it I wouldn't play. I play for FUN also, but it is becoming less fun each day! If I knew of another place to go I would without hesitation. I try hard to be a nice guy but some people really make me stretch to keep that attitude. Wilpat Replying to the forum Posted by wilpat (VIP) 17 Oct 2004 7:30pm I generally agree with Dotti except that I am definately offended when other players attack me for the way I play. I have been accused of playing slow, which is simply not the case. Sure sometimes we all get interrupted by the telephone or the grandkids or something else, but that is the exception. Also I was recently chided because I did not call with very few points in my hand, but when that started I was WAY behind and needed big counts or just give up! As it happens I won that game with some cuts. I have been playing for a long time and sometimes I win and sometimes I lose -- so what!! If I could not afford it I wouldn't play. I play for FUN also, but it is becoming less fun each day! If I knew of another place to go I would without hesitation. I try hard to be a nice guy but some people really make me stretch to keep that attitude. Wilpat ????? Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 17 Oct 2004 11:44pm I really don't understand the comments about 'questionable', 'challenged', 'chided' and 'elite' play. The issue was the simple fact that some players seem to be unbeatable and it 'could be' because there's no logic to their style of play. The first response accused me of 'erratic play'. The second response was 'it's no fun to play with people that want to play the game correctly. The third response agreed with the second response but happens to be a vetry consistantly good player. The fourth response was from one of the very best players and very best people on GC. If you've lost count, I skipped the first response. The fact is that anyone of us can be criticized for somethingf in just about every match. I'm talking about a player that does everything against logic and consistently wins. Maybe this player is doing everything right and the rest of the world is wrong. I've played against every one of the players responding. I respect all of them and won't comment further. I think my point is a good one and it not targeted at the 'one time' someone says something stupid to you; its the overall pattern of play. Sorry but that was the original posting and I know this FORUM has been a bit flat over the past few months. I enjoy discussing issues. If I'm wrong, please let me know. Fact or Fiction or.. could it be..... FUN ? Posted by DottiPage (VIP) 18 Oct 2004 9:46am Ed If you are going to quote me I would like you to be at least accurate. Are you perhaps in politics ? No where in my posting does it say 'Its no fun if I have to play the correct way' You obviously insist that there is only one way to play or only one 'correct' strategy to this game. Have you considered perhaps us 'new breed' of player have our own stragedy and it involves confusing the -- out of you more skilled players ? (Your words) At anyrate, enough is enough. Wilpat... one word bud Canasta !! They were very nice to me and even taught me how to play. Hope to see you there. Peg- love ya buckets.. appreciate the support. Really Confused...... Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 18 Oct 2004 12:16pm I usually refrain from doing this but curiosity got the better of me so I checked the statistics. Again, omitting the first response, the player accusing me of being erratic has an admirable 51.1% rating. He's played only 141 matches and his best streak was 4. He could have played under different names but his record is not very impressive. The second reply came from a player with 35.5% win rating which is even worse than me. The third contributor has a 46.3% win record and a best streak of 12. The fourth contributor has a 47.9% win rating and a best streak of 8 playing 1362 matches. My numbers are 42.5% with a best streak of 10 after playing 2,274 matches. I guess none of us are run-away elite players. The 51.1% player is the only negative criticism and, based on his record, he's really not qualified to judge. Dotti........ Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 18 Oct 2004 3:02pm I guess you're not altogether familiar with me. I play for fun, the love of the game and the people. I've been an outspoken advocate of 'loosening up' and enjoying the 'commeraderie' with the other players. I've been criticized for that approach but it did create quuite an interesting talk piece. Some replied that their sole reason to play was to 'make money'. One went so far as to state that his 'winnings on GC helped send his kids to college. I was a very successful TD for about a year and enjoyed every moment of it. I seem to have a ceratin credibility with many of the regular players on GC. If you ever catch me not saying 'GG', or something similar, after every single match I've played please let me know. I am not a gin 'purist' but would like to change my game enough to successfully compete with the elite. This 'elite' group I refer to are well known with the GC family. You may beat them but in the long run they always come out on top. BTW, in my humble opinion, non of the people involved in this posting are in that category but they do know who I'm referring to. If I've offended you I appologize. That was not my objective. If you are one of the players that intentionally strays from the basic rules of the game so be it. Now I know it and I'll be certain to steer clear of you. As far as enjoying the game and the site. GC is the very best site available and it's management is superb. I agree, when I stop enjoying the site I will also go elsewhere. Until then I will continue to enjoy playing and chatting with the other GC players. Exchange of ideas should be a good thing. Dotti........ Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 18 Oct 2004 3:02pm I guess you're not altogether familiar with me. I play for fun, the love of the game and the people. I've been an outspoken advocate of 'loosening up' and enjoying the 'commeraderie' with the other players. I've been criticized for that approach but it did create quuite an interesting talk piece. Some replied that their sole reason to play was to 'make money'. One went so far as to state that his 'winnings on GC helped send his kids to college. I was a very successful TD for about a year and enjoyed every moment of it. I seem to have a ceratin credibility with many of the regular players on GC. If you ever catch me not saying 'GG', or something similar, after every single match I've played please let me know. I am not a gin 'purist' but would like to change my game enough to successfully compete with the elite. This 'elite' group I refer to are well known with the GC family. You may beat them but in the long run they always come out on top. BTW, in my humble opinion, non of the people involved in this posting are in that category but they do know who I'm referring to. If I've offended you I appologize. That was not my objective. If you are one of the players that intentionally strays from the basic rules of the game so be it. Now I know it and I'll be certain to steer clear of you. As far as enjoying the game and the site. GC is the very best site available and it's management is superb. I agree, when I stop enjoying the site I will also go elsewhere. Until then I will continue to enjoy playing and chatting with the other GC players. Exchange of ideas should be a good thing. Have you read the rules ? Posted by DottiPage (VIP) 18 Oct 2004 8:29pm Just read the these areas provided by this site: gin rummy basics gin rummy rules gin rummy history gin rummy strategy gin rummy links gin rummy: skill or chance? Can't seem to find the area that describes the 'correct' way to play or at least says the way I play is wrong. ... If anyone can point me to an official document stating that the way I play is breaking the rules I will cheerfully relearn this lifelong played game and apologize for cheating Dotti...... Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 18 Oct 2004 10:58pm There is a 'Basic Strategy'for just about every card game based on the laws of probability and chance. There are numerous publications on Gin. None of them will say anyone is playing wrong but theyu will say your chances of winning increase when you play with the laws of averages. PS.....Dotti Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 19 Oct 2004 2:09am You have every right to play the way you want and no one is suggesting you should do anything other than what you're doing......enjoying GC. back up the truck Ed Posted by Menkman74 (VIP) 19 Oct 2004 12:28am Whoaaaa Ed.. easy guy. All I did was give you constructive feedback as to why I thought the player's 'erratic' comment that you mentioned in your original post about your style of play may be warranted. Now you've unfortunately opened up another can of worms. When another player questions my record and skill, well I now take that personally. You mentioned that my winning percentage was 51%. At first I was thinking, 'is he out of his mind??' Then I looked around as to where you would even get a ridiculously low number like that and I see that you went to my ladder record. You mentioned I only played 144 games. True. What you failed to acknowledge though is that I achieved the #1 ranking within that minimal amount of games and with a 50% record. Now the reason it is so low is b/c there is a strategy to becoming number 1 and STAYING #1 and that sometimes entails throwing games at times. Yeah, yeah I know it's cheap, but hey, it's legal and its no harm no foul, especially when they are free games. Enough of that though. You out of anyone should know that the real judgement of a persons skill is their overall record here at Game Colony. 499-324 makes me a 60.5% player and a 450-282 record in games that COUNT (ie $$ games) makes me a 61.4% player. You have never ONCE seen me talk about myself like that on here, but like I said, when you choose a source like a 144 game ladder record to critic my skill after playing me in the gin room and KNOWING that my record is much better than that by seeing it after double clicking my name, then it must be set straight. I was surprised you took a chance at using my ladder record to tell you the truth when you know that isnt a true indicator. Hopefully that explaination and record is a little more 'impressive' for you and also know that I never judged you or said I was qualified to judge you. I never gave you 'negative criticism'. All I did was give you constructive feedback. You acknowledged and even ACCEPTED it with a 'thank you for your input' comment. Where you tangented off to your last comments is beyond me. I am glad though you have changed your style of play and now only take cards that make a run or 4x chance etc etc. That among other things of course is a great start. I associate playing gin with playing raquetball. You will only get better at the game by playing opponents better than yourself. Just go easy on the records Ed until you've checked all sources. Kinda messed up on this one. 'No harm, No foul' though. Always a Pleasure, Never a Chore... Menk What does this mean ? It was in Menk's posting. Posted by DottiPage (VIP) 19 Oct 2004 5:28pm 'Now the reason it is so low is b/c there is a strategy to becoming number 1 and STAYING #1 and that sometimes entails throwing games at times. Yeah, yeah I know it's cheap, but hey, it's legal and its no harm no foul, especially when they are free games.' I have an idea, but I'm sure as 'correct' the really good players are I must be mistaken. You just made my case....... Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 19 Oct 2004 9:33pm Menk, my dear friend, you just made my point. Thanks. A few months ago one of those elite players refused to play a non-rated match with me. His reason was, “every time I play, I play to win. If you and I both put the effort in, the results will show it.” Let’s see, if I use your own words and accept just the “….record in games that COUNT;;;, I’d eliminate all the games I’ve lost and thus have a 100% rating. Your “strategy” is a bit weird. I didn’t know losing was part of the strategy of staying #1. I got to be #1 by winning, not losing. Look at your own words: “Now the reason it is so low is b/c there is a strategy to becoming number 1 and STAYING #1 and that sometimes entails throwing games at times. Yeah, yeah I know it's cheap, but hey, it's legal and its no harm no foul, especially when they are free games.” The last, and most significant, statement you made, “You acknowledged and even ACCEPTED it with a 'thank you for your input' comment”, is just a way to make fun of your implied excellence. It always seems to work. The truest statement you made is, “I never judged you or said I was qualified to judge you.” That is correct. I have no idea how long you’ve been playing gin but you always seem to pick up on minutia and run with it. Enough time and effort, you judged yourself and, in my humble opinion, have not played enough tourneys to judge anyone. Always an effort, always a chore. Reply to this topic Subject: Message: Main Forum \| Post Reply

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