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What is the right thing to do?
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What is the right thing to do?
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 18 Aug 2005 10:28pm     


This is an entirely new issue that's been a consistant ethical problem with me. My rating has been all over the spectrum from a high of about 1,840 to the mid 1,400's. I resumed playing this August after be out of GC due to shoulder surgery in mid June. There is a reason for this explanation so please bear with me.

I started on a fabulous run and won 21/23 games I played and my rating shot up to the upper 1,700's and I went from 1,443 on the Ladder to 29. You guessed it, the scales went the other way and earlier this evening my rating was 1,523. Those that know me also know I don't care about ratings but this is very relavant in this situation.

After I was soundly beaten in the first round of the 8PM tourney I went into the Main Room. There was an open Table 150_OKIE_15Tix_LD. The player was rated 1,567. I joined him and very quickly knew that my opponent had little or no experience. I won the first match quickly even though my opponent did win a few hands he received no points and I always got at leat 45+ points a game. I wanted to leave but my opponent hit the 'New Game' option and I always allow a person a second chance to get their money back.

Since I knew the level of my opponent there was no match and I readilly took that match also. Throughout I commented 'GG' and at the end of the second match I posted 'GGS' which normally means that's the last game I want to play. Nope, there it was again, another challenge. I felt bad and I accepted but before the match started my opponent wisely left the table.

I know this would be the 'dream scenario' for certain money players but I must admit I felt guilty that I had such and onvious advantage over my opponent. Okay, it was his choice to play me or not, it was his choice to play for 15 tix and he should have noticed the lack of points he earned on a win versus my scores. I still feel bad that I took 30 Tix from this much less talented player but I didn't want to leave him with the impression that I didn't want to play him.

The issue is the rating system and how a perception of low skill plays out.

What are your thoughts?


Just need to ask
Posted by (VIP) 19 Aug 2005 9:50am     


Ed why can't you just enjoy playing the games and quit agonizing over every aspect? I know - I know....you say you DO enjoy the games and it's only your perception of how you should behave that causes you to feel badly about taking money from a 'low-skilled' player.

It is THAT I need to ask about. How in the world can you label someone as being low-skilled after 2 games? Isn't it possible he was drawing lousy cards as we all do at times? Maybe he was hoping they would turn and so tried another, and maybe like you he doesn't have to worry about how much he spends to check it out.

For myself I would never give anyone that label even if I had my doubts about their ability ... and a 1567 rating isn't all that bad so he must win some. When I win a game I never think of my opponent as being 'much less talented' than myself, but rather think I had a lucky deal that game. And you have to know you're only as good as your dealer allows you to be. Strategy counts sure...but if you don't get the cards what good is it.

Just my take on the subject.

agreed
Posted by (VIP) 19 Aug 2005 12:39pm     


ed i agree there is no doubt when im playing someone, whether im a better player then them. granted sometimes they can get lucky cards. but in the end my ability will persever. lock me up in a room with them and let us keep playing. maybe then i can get my kids into a better college-lol. but ed, my opinion, forget about the rating, its all a joke, keep knockin them dead, except me of course
thinkorswim

wellll i never
Posted by Cagney (VIP) 19 Aug 2005 4:10pm     


man it get thick in here. you know wat? i aint no elvis but i sure enjoy singing once in awhile..and u know wat else? since i been singing with elvis people been saying i been singing better.

Charlie...Charlie...Charlie
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 19 Aug 2005 11:26pm     


The name of the game, not gin, is communication. When you communicate you stimulate or supress thought in others that choose, without coersion, to read the Forum. You and I have played a few matches and please don't say that a bad player 'isn't possible to spot after one or two games.' Granted, when two players of equal or similar talent meet the cards make the difference but that only assumes 'quick' gins and/or knocks. Whned the cards are played out, let's say, to the 13th card left in the deck the odds of winning swing greatly to the more skilled player.

I agree that anyone can go ona streak of either good or bad luck or cards but in the long run the better player will win. When I have the audacity of stating that this particular player was not a quality player it is based on the cards he drew and discarded. Remember that both hands are shown when there is a win so you can see what your opponent's strategies were. For example, you wouldn't pick up a ten of spades if you didn't have other tens, the possibility of a run in tens or a possibility of a run either plus or minus in suited tens.

When a player strategy is to pick up every first three cards discarded wheteher or not they are needed just to discard them you sort of get a hint. If I have 2 fours and neither is a four of spades and I also have the five of spades and three of spades, why would my opponent pick up a four spades? These are subtle hints of a lack of experience or talent when your opponent has a substantial point lead on you.

Charlie, I may not have made my case but please give me the benefit of having enough experience that I can determine the skill level of my opponent. I do concede that cards are the key but I also contend that you have to know how to play the cards to win.

As to your comment about me 'just enjoying the game' I do enjoy the game but I am haunted with being an analytical person and enjoy discussing my observations with others. If I'm wrong please let me know since quite a few other players over the years have thanked me for contributing to the FORUM.

Swimmer
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 19 Aug 2005 11:36pm     


As you know I enjoy playing matches with you and it is quite apparent that you are a highly skilled player. I have no idea of our win/loss records against one another but I would guess we are quite evenly matched. The difference between us is cards and both of us know that the other will not make a foolish move unless it was defensive.

You hit on what I was looking for in my original posting. When you say 'lock me up in a room with him....' you are addressing the dilemna that I faced. I could have played this opponent until the cows came home or one of us ran out of money but something in me said this isn't the right thing to do. Your choice is, obviousley, valid and shared by many and that's why I wrote this posting. I actually felt guilty taking this player's money.

Am I right or wrong, I don't know. There is a very high-stakes player I've been friends with for many years and we've discussed the fact that each of us don't enjoy taking the other's money. We love to play one another for the skill of the game but the money isn't the key to out matches. I do remember one night he intentionally withdrew from a tourney 3/4 through the match so I could win. Just the other night we played in the finals and I asked him to split the tix. I told him I was hot and he said 'no'. I thought he was just trying, once again, to let me win. I smiled and we played. The match was close and I fully intended to tell the TD to split the tix and I'd take the win if I won. He won and took all the winnings. I still can't figure that one out.

Cagney
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 19 Aug 2005 11:39pm     


I agree 100% with your statement. The more you play with better players the better you'll get. The issue is taking advantage by taking 30tix from your opponent. There have been times when I've been asked to drop the amount of tix and I do so gladly. I also play for no tix all the time just to experience different players and give others the chance to increase their rating.

ED...ED...ED
Posted by (VIP) 19 Aug 2005 11:54pm     


ROFL I give up Ed...you have more words than I do. I just enjoy forum posting too, and although I'm not the player you and thinkorswim are it was fun discussing pros and cons with you.



CharlieDog
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 20 Aug 2005 12:56am     


In my view there are winners and losers and in-between. I consider you a winner and I disagree with you own analysis of your quality play.

Keep on truckin

Another Thought
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 20 Aug 2005 7:28pm     


I guess it's really the money thing. I sincerley feel bad taking money from nice players at a lower experience level than me.

Earlier today my rating was hovering around 1,600 when I was challenged by a player in the very low 1,500 range. I accepted the challenge and early in the 1st match I could see that inexperience I spoke about. We played at leat six matches. The difference was that we were playing for 1/2Tix a match. I also noted the change in my opponent's play as he/she watched the way points were being thrown away by him/her.

This is exactly the point Cagney made and I played the role of Elvis Presely. It was enjoyable watching my opponent's game improve but after the seventh match wifey rang the dinner bell.


Taking Advantage
Posted by Chrisytime (VIP) 21 Aug 2005 8:38pm     


Man oh man Ed. You really touch on some issues don't you? It's always such a pleasure to read your forum postings and everyone's reply's. I see some folks get pretty touchy. As for this issue. I have two opinions. On the one hand, if the player is that bad and continually loses it's kind of their own fault for the continued ticket games when they never win. On the other hand, it's really no fun or a challenge to play someone that you know is no good. There is one particular player on this site and I'm sure all of us have played this person and they are just not able to pick-up the points of the game. I will play them two games max (which I always win) and then I'm done. While they continue to ask, I usually just say no ty and leave. But, this player is back in the trenches each and everyday and over the past year I have seen some improvement but not enough to continually lose 5 or 10 tickets per game. Again, while you feel bad, you need to realize that these folks keep coming back and someone is going to win it from them, why not you? Kind of a selfish thought huh? That's why I only take two games at a time. There are some players that I NEVER beat and they know it and I just don't play them. I can't seem to get their strategy or pick-up on what they are doing which is good in one way but when you continually pick-up cards that have absolutely no value whatsoever in your hand -- I don't know what they are doing other than to throw me and my cards (which they usually do). Anyways, good comments and thoughts. Take care.

ticket play
Posted by ginner (VIP) 21 Aug 2005 11:43pm     



Ed, I've played games where the opponent didn't know how to play off their deadwood on my knocked hand. I clicked on player info and found that they didn't have many ticket games under their belt. So, I showed them how to do it. Some may just jump in without learning how it works and figure $5 games aren't going to kill them. Others may play low-limit ticket games just to improve their play. I'd be uncomfortable playing them endlessly, but a few games may make them better players. Those are my thoughts.

Chrissy and Ginner
Posted by Ed_Blue (VIP) 22 Aug 2005 12:05am     


I guess I'm not the only player that feels this way and I'm thrilled to see the type of replies that are constructive rather than destructive. As both of you know, I enjoy the game but hate to take advantage of people. Lately I've been fortunate enough to play some great players. I just finish playing one of the very best and his comment was 'you always make me sweat'. In my book that's a good thing. I also had the opportunity to play the Lady Jane; this is a really good player. If you get the opportunity jump in she is great.

When you play a player of equal quality, good or bad, as yourself the scales have a tendency to swing. In the long run you'll probably break even with these players but the one commonality is that you will always enjoy the match. Okay, that player had me going all the way through and it was a pleasure. He even posted to the Forum and I was thrilled at that. I'd mention his name but I don't thimnk he'd like that.

To all players, enjoy the game a fraction of the way I do and you'll reallyu have a great time. By the way, it is a great feeling watching a playuer pick up their quality of play after playing you.

Thanks for the replies


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